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	<title>Comments on: Q: Lowess error bars?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/</link>
	<description>Weaving together Astronomy+Statistics+Computer Science+Engineering+Intrumentation, far beyond the growing borders</description>
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		<title>By: hlee</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>hlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 00:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-248</guid>
		<description>Not a preview button, but now one can see how one&#039;s comment looks like. Please, let us know any inconvenience from slogging. Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a preview button, but now one can see how one&#8217;s comment looks like. Please, let us know any inconvenience from slogging. Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: hlee</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>hlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 00:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it is only for straight lines as regression analysis although the given examples are the most simplest cases. I understood quantile regression as a versatile, robust, and nonparametric method compared to traditional regression analysis typically built under normal errors. Given that thousands of data points to be fit, I thought economically bootstrap is not viable and quantile regression can be an alternative. I can be wrong but under the objective of fitting, lowess does not appeal to me. It&#039;s time to get rid of dusts on the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is only for straight lines as regression analysis although the given examples are the most simplest cases. I understood quantile regression as a versatile, robust, and nonparametric method compared to traditional regression analysis typically built under normal errors. Given that thousands of data points to be fit, I thought economically bootstrap is not viable and quantile regression can be an alternative. I can be wrong but under the objective of fitting, lowess does not appeal to me. It&#8217;s time to get rid of dusts on the book.</p>
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		<title>By: vlk</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>vlk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-245</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link to Gelman&#039;s post, Nick (btw, I fixed that hyperlink!).

Hyunsook, could you explain how quantile regression helps to generate smooth curves?  I was under the impression that they are just another way to fit straight lines.

Alex, you bring up another bugaboo: when one bootstraps loess curves, it is easy to get them braided up like a frayed rope.  In such cases, a density plot tells only half the story.  What kind of strategies do statisticians use to deal with that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link to Gelman&#8217;s post, Nick (btw, I fixed that hyperlink!).</p>
<p>Hyunsook, could you explain how quantile regression helps to generate smooth curves?  I was under the impression that they are just another way to fit straight lines.</p>
<p>Alex, you bring up another bugaboo: when one bootstraps loess curves, it is easy to get them braided up like a frayed rope.  In such cases, a density plot tells only half the story.  What kind of strategies do statisticians use to deal with that?</p>
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		<title>By: awblocker</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>awblocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-244</guid>
		<description>Typically, loess analyses are accompanied by a plot showing the original fit with a large number of bootstrap replications, produced by resampling the original loess residuals. However, these are also quite difficult to read. I favor some type of shaded density plot for the bootstrap replications. If the program you&#039;re plotting in supports transparency, this can be done quickly by increasing the line width and dropping the opacity when plotting the bootstrapped loess curves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Typically, loess analyses are accompanied by a plot showing the original fit with a large number of bootstrap replications, produced by resampling the original loess residuals. However, these are also quite difficult to read. I favor some type of shaded density plot for the bootstrap replications. If the program you&#8217;re plotting in supports transparency, this can be done quickly by increasing the line width and dropping the opacity when plotting the bootstrapped loess curves.</p>
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		<title>By: hlee</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>hlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 20:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-242</guid>
		<description>I was going to suggest quantile regression but surprised that there are many comments. Via quantile regression, you&#039;ll get best fit regression results at the given quantile. 25% and 75% percentiles will give regression fits with 50% error range. On the other hand, I learn lowess as a diagnostic tool like astronomers add error bars and a straight line to show how good the fit is, not for best fit.

By the way, thank you, Nick for pointing a technical improvement for the slog. I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s due to Wordpress, or the current theme, or my laziness that I wasn&#039;t able to find a plug in. I&#039;ll definitely look into it and will do best to include a preview button.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to suggest quantile regression but surprised that there are many comments. Via quantile regression, you&#8217;ll get best fit regression results at the given quantile. 25% and 75% percentiles will give regression fits with 50% error range. On the other hand, I learn lowess as a diagnostic tool like astronomers add error bars and a straight line to show how good the fit is, not for best fit.</p>
<p>By the way, thank you, Nick for pointing a technical improvement for the slog. I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s due to Wordpress, or the current theme, or my laziness that I wasn&#8217;t able to find a plug in. I&#8217;ll definitely look into it and will do best to include a preview button.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-241</guid>
		<description>Oops. Sorry about the hyperlink. This is the reason why I need a preview button! I&#039;ll be more careful next time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. Sorry about the hyperlink. This is the reason why I need a preview button! I&#8217;ll be more careful next time.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-240</guid>
		<description>vlk, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s superhard to do the bootstrap. Also not, imho, super enlightening. I myself would love to become a pure bayesian even in areas of nonparametric, and in this case there may be some Bayesian alternatives which give similar results to Loess. 

You might check out Gelman&#039;s post on it, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2005/03/lowess_is_great.html&quot; title=&quot;Gelman&#039;s Post on LOESS&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;, but he says that there are no Bayesian versions of it.&lt;/a&gt; The comments back in 2005 do mention some Bayesian alternatives. 

One such alternative I would think is Gaussian Processes. If you google Gaussian Processes, you&#039;ll see that there is even a webpage on them. The difficult part is choosing a prior for the covariance function. This choice could give a wide range of alternatives (you could even get ARIMA/ARMA type fits or probably a wide range of splines). It&#039;s extremely general. Since posteriors only give confidence intervals in parameter space, I guess I&#039;d use predictive distributions to get the confidence intervals in data space.

BTW, it would be great to have a &quot;preview&quot; button for comments on this blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>vlk, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s superhard to do the bootstrap. Also not, imho, super enlightening. I myself would love to become a pure bayesian even in areas of nonparametric, and in this case there may be some Bayesian alternatives which give similar results to Loess. </p>
<p>You might check out Gelman&#8217;s post on it, <a href="http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2005/03/lowess_is_great.html" title="Gelman's Post on LOESS" rel="nofollow">, but he says that there are no Bayesian versions of it.</a> The comments back in 2005 do mention some Bayesian alternatives. </p>
<p>One such alternative I would think is Gaussian Processes. If you google Gaussian Processes, you&#8217;ll see that there is even a webpage on them. The difficult part is choosing a prior for the covariance function. This choice could give a wide range of alternatives (you could even get ARIMA/ARMA type fits or probably a wide range of splines). It&#8217;s extremely general. Since posteriors only give confidence intervals in parameter space, I guess I&#8217;d use predictive distributions to get the confidence intervals in data space.</p>
<p>BTW, it would be great to have a &#8220;preview&#8221; button for comments on this blog.</p>
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		<title>By: vlk</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>vlk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-239</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Nick.  I was afraid of that -- no alternative to brute force bootstrap or Monte Carlo then!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Nick.  I was afraid of that &#8212; no alternative to brute force bootstrap or Monte Carlo then!</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-238</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about measured data errors or similar. Loess by itself doesn&#039;t really come equipped with a standard error calculator....since...if you&#039;re a frequentist...just how should the loess &quot;parameters&quot; be distributed according to the sampling distribution. 

Rather, people tend to use boostrap to find standard errors (like they use cross-validation to find &quot;best fits&quot;). For an example of bootstrapped standard errors in Loess, check out the link: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www-stat.stanford.edu/~susan/courses/s208/node20.html&quot; title=&quot;Bootstrapping Examples&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; toward the middle of the page under the heading &quot;Curve Fitting Example, Efron &amp; Tibshirani, 7.3&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about measured data errors or similar. Loess by itself doesn&#8217;t really come equipped with a standard error calculator&#8230;.since&#8230;if you&#8217;re a frequentist&#8230;just how should the loess &#8220;parameters&#8221; be distributed according to the sampling distribution. </p>
<p>Rather, people tend to use boostrap to find standard errors (like they use cross-validation to find &#8220;best fits&#8221;). For an example of bootstrapped standard errors in Loess, check out the link: <a href="http://www-stat.stanford.edu/~susan/courses/s208/node20.html" title="Bootstrapping Examples" rel="nofollow"> toward the middle of the page under the heading &#8220;Curve Fitting Example, Efron &amp; Tibshirani, 7.3&#8243;</a></p>
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		<title>By: vlk</title>
		<link>http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/2008/question-lowess-error-bars/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>vlk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://groundtruth.info/AstroStat/slog/?p=329#comment-237</guid>
		<description>Yes, R does have a lowess function, but it doesn&#039;t produce an estimate of reliability.  It doesn&#039;t matter (at this time) what the assumptions are about the underlying error distribution of the data.  Lowess produces a curve based on fitting polynomials separately at each point (so that&#039;s why I called it a &quot;best-fit&quot; curve), and the question is, how robust is that curve, given that the data have scatter and/or that the data have measurement uncertainty?

I suppose it is always possible to run a thousand Monte Carlo simulations based on the measured data errors, but I was looking for a faster, hopefully analytical, way to get the confidence band on the curve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, R does have a lowess function, but it doesn&#8217;t produce an estimate of reliability.  It doesn&#8217;t matter (at this time) what the assumptions are about the underlying error distribution of the data.  Lowess produces a curve based on fitting polynomials separately at each point (so that&#8217;s why I called it a &#8220;best-fit&#8221; curve), and the question is, how robust is that curve, given that the data have scatter and/or that the data have measurement uncertainty?</p>
<p>I suppose it is always possible to run a thousand Monte Carlo simulations based on the measured data errors, but I was looking for a faster, hopefully analytical, way to get the confidence band on the curve.</p>
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